Big Brother On The Loose - In Your Car

Much has been talked about 'Big Brother' and specifically the intrusion into our personal lives that has become constant fear since the enactment of The Patriot Act. The Patriot Act, of course, was meant to aid the government in deterring terrorism and catching criminals. However as is usually the case, give the government an inch, and they will usually try and take a foot. The latest scare is within automotive circles - the installation of 'black boxes' in vehicles that record everything from crash data to driving habits. Of course the premise is to aid the police and insurance companies in determining the circumstances of an accident, much like is now down with airplanes. However this data is only made available to police authorities and insurance companies.

KEVIN DONOVAN - A GM ENGINEER WRITES THIS ABOUT THE NEW BLACK BOX TECHNOLOGY

Big Brother or just progress?

There is a new threat to your security AND your pocketbook. For the last few years, the automotive industry has been silently installing componentry into new cars that could threaten your personal security, privacy and even end up costing you your hard-earned money or your license. What is this secret new technology? Well, they're called Event Data Recorders, or EDR's for short. I'm sure there are a few people here that have heard of them but I'll bet there are few that realize just how much of a potential threat they pose to you. The EDR was originally installed as basically a 'black-box' for the purpose of gathering crash data for the OEM engineers to study post accident, but now their data parameters are growing to include items that have nothing to do with accident data or SIR efficiency. Now, a new breed of EDR is starting to be used for other purposes. They are being used to work with other modules such as the OnStar systems in GM cars. They can record all kinds of things, and with the use of an integrated GPS system, they can record not only WHAT happened and WHEN it happened but, WHERE. This kind of information could reap large benefits to several people. The OEM suppose you go out and 'play' with your new sports car, only to get a letter from the manufacturer stating that your warranty is void due to your 'playing'. That's right, you've just been ratted-out by your own car! Your insurance company . Think this is far-fetched? Not so. It's already being used by some to track where you drive, how you drive, and when you drive.

How about the federal government - that's right, they want to know where you are and they want evidence to use against you in court if they need it. Think THAT's far-fetched? Think again, part of the Patriot Act addresses that very point and has made it possible for the FBI to get that data from your EDR(s) without your permission, whenever they want it. How about your spouse - how fun would it be for you to be able to know where that cheating spouse of yours is? Just think how useful it would've been to have these little beauties in all those Audi's that were 'supposed' to have a problem with unintended acceleration! Audi would've saved MILLIONS! And their reputation would never have taken the hit it did.

So even though it's nice to know that when you have an accident, OnStar (or any other company like it) will call emergency personnel and guide them directly to you, remember what you're giving up for that convenience. Big Brother is here and now and right in your car. You might think that the information in that EDR is yours since you own the car, right? Wrong! As of right now, that is NOT necessarily the case. Any judge can issue an order to get without your permission. The NTSB wants control of the data, the NHTSA is still on your side but all this can change. It will be battled out in the courts and it WILL impact us all. Yeah, it sounded like a great idea to be able to know where your kids are driving and how, right? And it was great to be able to pay tolls automatically right? Believe me, it's only a matter of time before they start issuing speeding tickets based on mathematical calculations of your average speed on the highway. And how could you fight it? You passed this toll at this time, and then passed the next at this time. Do the math and it's pretty darn easy to determine and average speed, huh?

Well, I just wanted to see what everyone thought about this new technology.


Display:


EDR disabling (none / 0)

Can EDRs be disabled or removed? How extensive is their use?
by edgeplot on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 09:42:18 PM EST

Patriot Act (none / 0)

"The Patriot Act, of course, was meant to aid the government in deterring terrorism and catching criminals."

No, it wasn't. That was just the smoke screen.  The P-Act is meant to be the entering wedge to a) erode civil liberties; b) provide cover for any local sheriff or D.A. to bring down surveillance on whomever s/he pleases.

by drlimerick on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 10:25:52 PM EST

Here's a must see story from the nyt (none / 0)

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/17/technology/17tag.html?oref=login&hp
by Paul Goodman on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 10:47:33 PM EST

Re: Here's a must see story from the nyt (none / 0)

This country is doomed.  

Most people are so freaking paranoid now that they are scared of their own shadow.  They want guns, alarms, and tracking devices, etc., to protect themselves from their own shadow.  

Meanwhile they willingly kill themselves by eating triple bacon cheeseburgers in excess without excercising, or by shooting one another, or just getting stressed out to the point of having a heart attack.

Wake me when this nightmare is over.  

by LionelEHutz on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 11:22:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hovercrafts (none / 0)

That's the answer.
by JohnGor0 on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 11:09:43 PM EST

EDR Use (none / 0)

EVERY airbag equipped vehicle has a sensor or a 'black box' device of some kind. The simpliest 'boxes' only record deployment data. The most sophisticated boxes, found mostly on high-end vehicles at the moment, can record car conditions for a short period of time ending with airbag deployment or some other catastrophic event. At the moment, the only real uses for any of this data has been with the manufacturers to fine tune their vehicles.

However the biggest threat seems to be less with the government and more with the insurance companies. Insurance companies, by definition, back risk and anything they can use to reduce risk they will do. An insurance company is not going to pay out a claim if it has good reason to believe differently. While there is almost certainly some fraud on the part of motorists, its rather tiny compared to other problems we face while driving. GM, and other manufacturers, have vehicle positioning systems in place on their vehicles, (in GM's case called ONSTAR) that allow the vehicle to be tracked. Taken to the extreme, the technology can do anything from track where we are to how we drive.

Of course this is only a small facet of a larger problem that while we embrace the benefits of technology - the downside is that we risk losing our privacy and identity as our world becomes more thing driven than people driven.

by southerndemnut on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 01:32:43 AM EST

Re: EDR Use (none / 0)

The ral problem becomes that with this "black boc" ifo an insurance company and claim  you were going to fast for the road condituion and there fore the accident was you fault and won't pay out. Or they can find out a variety of other factors in an attempt nto to pay out.
by likesun on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 10:45:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Guess what Arnold wants to do here in California? (none / 0)

Put black boxes in every car and charge road taxes by the miles driven, rather than on gas purchased (as they are now). These would mean that Arnold's Hummer and all his friends with the big honking SUV's would pay the same tax as the little guy with the compact (or the environmentally aware person with the hybrid)

It seems with all the hybrid's, people walking and cycling and taking public transport (because the price of gas is so high) that the state's revenues are down.

by fwaltman on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 02:30:10 AM EST

Terminate the Governator (none / 0)

Is this going to be a potential voter referendum?

How long until you guys vote someone else into office?

by nkp on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 03:32:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Another kind of black box... (none / 0)

There has also been a debate in Calif. about adding a kind of black box in cars that, when it received a signal, (which would supposedly only be sent by the police) it would stop your car, cold. Even if it was in the middle of a freeway traveling 60 miles an hour.

And as someone who has sitten on a jury in which unwitting third-party victims of a terrible, maiming automobile collision caused by a high-speed police chase attempted to get some compensation, I can tell you that if this happens to you, it's probaby tough luck... Juries don't like to award money to people for torts caused by local governments. Nomatter WHAT happens.

by ultraworld on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 09:46:04 AM EST

Re: Another kind of black box... (none / 0)

This technology exists, but you over emphasize the result.

The car automatcially and gradually slows and finally comes to a stop.  Probably the doors lock too until a command unlocks them.

The car doesn't come to a split second stop...

by lutton on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 11:39:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Newst idea to kill public education... (none / 0)

That's not the only outrage.

In my area some rich property owners want to make it so ONLY PEOPLE WHO HAVE CHILDREN PAY THE PORTION OF PROPERTY TAXES THAT FUND EDUCATION!

That's right, make it just like China. Of course, the taxes on those remaining would be huge if the people who can most afford to pay drop out of the system.

if you ask me, their goal is to force people to 'drop off the map' - pulling their children out of school!

When I first heard people talking about this, I thought it was a joke, but it isn't.

by ultraworld on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 09:52:58 AM EST

speeding tickets (none / 0)

Just about any toll road that issues paper cards to travellers encodes data on a magstripe on the card.  That data icludes entrance and exit times.  So with a camera at the tolls to film the license plate, a fine could be issued to the car owner, even without any GPS, black box, EZPass, etc.

It's a slippery slope.  People driving 15, 20 or more MPH above the speed limit are obviously dangers to themselves and others.  Police and Troopers can't be everywhere.  Should we utilize monitoring to catch these people?  Red light cameras do a similar thing.  I don't know...

I do believe the penalties and repercussions of being caught by actually law enforcement personnel should be much stiffer...higher penalties, quicker suspensions, and manditory monitoring for set period of time.  People who haven't violated the rules (or haven't yet been caught) shouldn't be monitored.  But once you offend, you give up your right to privacy, at least for a while.

by lutton on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 11:50:44 AM EST

I feel like a prophet -- (none / 0)

When I was in high school, '71 or '72, Volkswagen came out with a system of sensors that the VW dealer-mechanic could plug into a diagnostic machine to help figure out what was wrong with the car.  For a class, I wrote a story about an NSA data analyst needing money and pondering selling info to the Soviets; he was busted when he took his VW in for service, because the sensors had augmented capacities VW did not bother to advertise.

Just slightly ahead of my time.

by drlimerick on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 12:14:39 PM EST

Civil Disobedience? [Doonesbury] (none / 0)

"What if the usage of a radar detector is an expression of civil disobedience
and disagreement with the speed limit?"

Anyone here remember this classic Doonesbury strip?

Really.  if these black-boxes became mandatory,
surely free-enterprise would encourage those among us, who could re-program the things, to "fix them" to report that you drive slower than your grandparents.  

and, if not that, a pair of wire snips would do the trick quite well.  

More seriously, this sitution is analogous (lightly speaking..) to genetic profiling.  

Insurance companies are already offering reduced rates, to those willing to install a "big-brother" box. (i've read this, but lack a cite/url...)

The claim was also made that that one can be credited for "careful" driving, if the box proves out, that your driving patterns are less risky than originally estimated.

But, y'know a small part of me sorta/kinda likes this black-box idea. (pause here, to dodge flames...)

Where I live has one of the highest SUV's per capita ratios, if not the highest in the country.

If the insurance companies could only see the morons in 4-ton SUVs tailgating at >85 MPH on icy highways, it would be a real blessing.

Never mind that nearly all of those SUV's are
plastered with BC04 stickers, or some crackpot libertarian rot ...

by lb in CO on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 01:15:55 AM EST


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